This is the first of several interviews I conducted many years ago that were intended to be in Issue #3 of my zine which never came to fruition. In March of 2009 while I was interning at PETA I had the privilege of interviewing Dan Yemin before Paint It Black played VA Beach with Propagandhi. This is the first of 2 parts of my interview with Dan. Without further ado here is Mr. Yemin and I talking about Paint It Black, politics in hardcore and a lack thereof, some history on DIY shows in Philly, BURN, living in Michigan and more!
On the cover of CVA, that face, is that someone in
particular?
No.
Does CVA stand for anything?
It does. It stands for Cerebral Vascular Accident which is
technical for a stroke.
Does that have anything to do with what you went through?
Yea that’s exactly what I went through. That was the whole
point. That’s the reason the band started. It’s kind of obvious but it’s kind
of personal.
Does that tie into the theme of that record overall for
you?
Yea, definitely. It’s about survival.
Going along the same lines for the other 2 records, the
titles of both Paradise and New Lexicon, do they go along with the overall
theme of those records?
Paradise is pulled from the song Micaragua on that record.
The line is “I see paradise and you see pavement” which is basically about
cycles of colonization I guess. So Nicaragua, which was originally colonized by
the Spanish then after gaining independence or kind of being politically
colonized by the US cold war style in the ‘80s during the Reagan years and is
now being colonized by American real estate developers, post-industrial
contemporary capitalism. I was on a surfing trip and kind of eaves dropped on
the conversations of a lot of real estate developers who were coming in to
basically exploit people’s naiveté and build condos, it’s like the 3rd
wave of colonization basically and it’s kind of disgusting. And of course it’s
disguised as development and it’s disguised as economic empowerment for the
locals. So the term “paradise” is an irony about things looking great and being
terrible. Which I think is the American way. I think it’s the foundations on
which our modern cultures are built; a high gloss coating over a load of shit.
Paint It Black has always been about drawing people’s attention to the hideous
things that are done in the name of power and nationalism and profit but
there’s also a ray of hope in our songs. There are a lot of things I don’t
believe in or disassociate myself from but at the end of the day what I really
believe in is the capacity for resilience and love and goodness. Through art
and through music we kind of lift ourselves up, as a band and as fans of other
bands participating in somewhat of a counter culture that I think is part of a
longstanding American tradition of protest music. I think we try to find some
transcendence to lift ourselves up so Paradise is, in a non-ironic sense, about
that effort as well.
And for New Lexicon, how does that title relate to what
you’re talking about on that record?
New Lexicon is about attempting to always recreate and craft
identity as a hardcore/punk band and also the idea behind the departures in
production on this record. Hardcore means one thing to me but 80% of what’s
marketed as hardcore in 2009 is not recognizable to me as hardcore and I’m not
going to fight people over the word. The word is not what’s important, it’s a
short cut, it’s a symbol for something and it’s because a symbol for something
else that I don’t recognize in a lot of ways. Mass culture, warped tour,
consumerism and thuggish violence and I want nothing to do with that. When the
symbols and words that we rely on to describe ourselves and what we do are no
longer valid or useful we have to create new ones and that’s what New Lexicon
is about. Lexicon is basically a fancy word for dictionary, to create a new
language for communicating through music because the old language is
misleading, I think. Like dudes in baseball hats and tap shirts and mesh shorts
doing karate moves and intimidating the fuck out of people that are there to
enjoy themselves and learn something – that has nothing to do with what we are
about. Metal masquerading as punk that’s heavy for heavy’s sake, as background
noise for displays of macho bullshit – also not what we’re about. When it
really comes down to what’s hardcore and what’s not hardcore they can have the
word. Taking that whole dialogue and transferring it over to the music and the
production and the song writing. It’s not a radical departure, it’s a
significant distance in how a punk record is typically made, written, recorded
and produced. I think we took a real departure in the production so it’s
partially about that as well. We recorded with an old punk guy then we did
post-production and mixing with a hip hop guy. To the best of my knowledge it
hasn’t been done so I was excited about that.
I never saw them but I believe you made a blog online
about what the songs were about on CVA when that record came out?
I did.
Was that the only record you did that for?
Yea.
I know you asked people what they thought, whether they
wanted to see a similar thing with New Lexicon.
Some people did, some felt that they didn’t need it.
Is there a particular reason why you chose not to do so
for both Paradise and New Lexicon, not only with the songs themselves but also
with the overall theme of the record as you just reiterated to me. I definitely
wouldn’t have gotten all of what you just told me on my own and I really love
that kind of insight. Is there any reason why you chose to leave those things out?
I like the idea of people coming to their own conclusions. I
also like the idea of explanations and I was really split as you probably saw
on the blogs around this album. I was really split down the middle as to how to
handle it. Somebody ended up coming up with a great idea which was asking
people to submit their idea’s as to what the songs are about and kind of put it
all out there and hide my own explanation in there with all of theirs and let
people see a full array of ideas. It ended up being a lot bigger of a project
than I imagined. On the one hand I want people to know what we’re singing about
and on the other I don’t want to….I think punks are smart and I want people to
imbue the songs with their own meanings as well.
Song explanations and hearing a front man talking about
what the songs mean live between songs are things that I love and you don’t see
too much of that these days. Definitely when I started going to shows your
average band doesn’t do that as opposed to back in the ‘90s.
Politics aren’t involved anymore.
I’m always appreciative of the bands that do and even
some of the really outspoken, radically-minded bands don’t put explanations in
their records or don’t say anything about them. I always make it a point to ask
why they don’t do that and a lot of bands say something similar to what you
said, they want people to figure it out for themselves and have their own
interpretations which I definitely understand. At the same time, definitely
with New Lexicon, a lot of it goes over my head.
Do you think it may be a bit of a cop out on my part? And
please be honest with me.
Coming from the stand point of a somewhat younger kid in
hardcore in this day and age I think you’re maybe giing too much of the benefit of
the doubt to assume that the majority of them are going to think about the
songs themselves, from my opinion.
Fair enough. In an interview or onstage I’ll talk about
anything. Were there any you wanted to talk about further?
Let’s go with “Why Film the Carnage.” What record is that
on?
That’s on the first record.
“I can’t build as fast as you
tear down, I need some relief. I’m driving nails with my skull while you pull
them out with your teeth.”
It is about, it’s one of many songs that are about
people distorting what punk is about and being destructive, mostly verbally
destructive. There’s also the destructiveness of people being physically
aggressive or intimidating at shows or on the internet. There are people that
do a lot of work then there’s the people that don’t do anything that are free
to spend a lot of time and energy publicly criticizing the people that do do a
lot of stuff to produce culture and make it accessible to people. I think it’s
a pretty common human tendency but kind of feel that if people spent as much
time trying to be productive as they did trying to tear people down there’d be
a lot more cool stuff going on. “What makes you think you can fuck with this
it’s our sacred ground. You defile this with your bottom line.” People
over-focusing on the business aspect of running a band or a record label. You
know things being all about the financial bottom line and that not really being
what’s important in this music scene, sub culture, in music in general.
I think there’s a lot of themes that run throughout all 3
records, “rip out the heart, parade the corpse around.” That’s a metaphor for
punk and hardcore basically, when you criticize and make it about money it
becomes a shell of what it was and what it’s meant to be and that makes me
angry. It’s hard to do (talk about) those (songs) because it was like 8 years
ago.
This is a “Paradise” song, I don’t know the name of
it….”when it feels like I’m swimming against the tide. Our heads are stupid but
our bodies are wise. I find hope in your hands, lips and eyes.” Is that about a
particular person?
No. It is about finding solace and redemption in physical
intimacy. You could also say it’s about fucking which would also be true. It
was written a year after my first wife left and I left like a lot of things in
my life kind of fell apart for obvious reasons. I had a stroke and got divorced
in the same year, roughly. It’s really about feeling saved, comforted and
redeemed by physical intimacy and sex; close, naked physical contact with
another human being. And there are a lot
of references to angels in my songs. The older ones are references to women
that I dated when I was single after I got divorced. When the term emerges in a
newer song it’s a reference to my current wife who is the most amazing person
ever.
Have you ever wrote a song that’s about physical intimacy
on the flipside, how it can be a very empty façade at the same time?
Nope, I have not. I try not to live that way. I try not to
find comfort in falsehoods although I’m sure at some point I have. It’s nothing
I really relate to or something I’d really want to write about unless it was an
experience I had a strong feeling about which I don’t.
Going back to the records overall…
That was a good question by the way.
Thank you. I’m really into gender issues and sexual
politics. A lot of the time I feel that way myself; very detached. Being
physically involved but having no desire for any sort of emotional attachment
so I can definitely relate to those issues.
There’s part of it that I didn’t really write about which is
that when I was newly single I was dating and I was physically intimate with
people but I was incapable of commitment and I think that was really
frustrating to some of the women I dated and rightly so and I think I could’ve
been a better partner to some people at certain points in time. But I think I
was doing my best.
Do you think that’s a part of human nature? Do you think
we all kind of have a degree of emotional distance at one point in our lives?
I think so, I think there are times when we don’t have what
it takes to give ourselves fully and freely to someone else. So we put up these
barriers to maintain our own sense of integrity because we fear kind of being
engulfed by that other person and we’re not ready for it.
Artwork…if you want to start with CVA and go through all
the records just like we did with the titles of the records and how that tied
into what you’re talking about on each of them. Does the artwork have similar
relations?
The artwork on CVA is too blunt, I’m not a fan of it
anymore. It looks cool and a friend of ours that’s extremely talented designed
it but I think it’s to blunt at this point. I’m not comfortable with that
degree of bluntness. It’s a very literal translation of what the records about.
Overly literal even. A tank running over someone’s head….it’s kind of…heavy
handed is the word I’m looking for. It’s a good looking record but in
retrospect I’d probably do it differently. Paradise…we went through a lot of
early designs that were way too heavy handed and literal and I realized my
mistake was telling the graphic artist too much about the themes of the record.
He was really trying to make sure it was apparent in the art what the record
was about and I didn’t want it to be that apparent. I wanted it to be jarring
and somewhat literary, I wanted it to look like a paperback book you’d see in a
used book store and say “wow, I know what this is about.” I wanted it to be
less clean, less pretty but also in some ways reflect the tone and the content
of the record. I think some artists…some graphic designers are more like fine
artists and if you tell all of what the records about that’s fine, it’ll kind
of sink in and influence what they create. And some graphic artists are very
much like technicians and if you tell them too much as to what the records
about the result will be obvious and heavy handed. With New Lexicon that was
really Andy’s thing. He really wanted something dark and sterile and beautiful
and something that really conveyed alienation in post-industrial….post
industrial alienation and loss in a way that was classically beautiful but also
ugly. And in a way that was also very clean. He had a lot of big ideas about
that. And certainly what we didn’t want was any more pictures of dudes with
guitars jumping so we took it to a friend of ours from the punk scene. He used
to roadie for Snapcase back in the day. His name is Clint and he has a graphic
design company called Tomorrow and we talked to him a lot and he came up with some ideas and he wanted to lay it
out like a coffee table art book. Picture, text. Picture, text. Have it look
kind of minimal and I think it came out pretty close to exactly how we wanted
it.
How long have you lived in Philadelphia?
16 years, 17 in August.
Can you talk about DIY shows there, R5 in particular, if
you’ve played any particular role with them? I’m sure you’ve seen the rise of
DIY shows in Philly with R5 and the Blacklist thing with Robbie before that….
I’ve seen it from the last several generations in Philly.
Andy could better talk about some of this. He’s directly involved with R5, I’ve
sort of been a witness. When I moved to Philly there was not much going on in
terms of shows. In some ways I’d say the efforts of all but also from the
efforts of a few very dedicated people it’s become a place where….it’s gone
from a place that people would skip when touring from DC to NY to a city that
no one ever skips on tour. And I think that’s due to the efforts of very few
people. Will Gervasi who was the bass player for Policy of Three, 400 Years and
most recently R.A.M.B.O. he and some other people started the Cabbage
Collective in the early ‘90s and were putting on shows in different rented
church basements and things like that. Did a lot of amazing shows over the
years and when one place would get shut down they’d find another place rather
than give up and be like, “oh I guess we’re not doing shows anymore,” they’d
find another space and another space and another space. Once they sort of
established a foundation Robbie came along I think roughly around the same time
Sean (Agnew of r5 Productions) started doing shows. Sean used to only do the
ska/punk shows that came to Philly, Robbie was doing the more traditional
hardcore stuff and then Cabbage Collective was doing a lot of the really DIY
stuff though all these shows were DIY, they were in rented church halls.
Cabbage Collective did more of the ebullition, gravity records styled bands,
dischord kind of stuff. Robbie did more of the…
Is this ’95 we’re talkin?
Yea around ’95.
So probably the early Victory stuff.
Yea, Victory, Equal Vision, Revelation that kind of stuff.
Like the New England youth crew revival era, Ten Yard
Fight, Floorpunch…?
Yeah there was some of that. He’d do a BURN show, a
Floorpunch show. Well maybe he missed BURN but there was certainly Orange 9mm
shows that he did. Early H20 shows before they got too big for The Church.
Robbie did that kind of stuff and then Sean did…I mean ska/punk was huge in the
mid 90’s and this other guy Mike would do a lot of the pop/punk shows. There
were a lot of people doing shows by this point in a lot of places. By ’95 there
was a huge scene where you could have The Bouncing Souls playing at the
Trocadero which holds like 1300 people on the same night as Lifetime and
Damnation playing at the church which holds like 500 people on the same night
as Universal Order of Armageddon was playing a church hall in West Philly and
all three shows would be sold out. I just remember that night particularly
thinking “wow, what other city besides NYC and the Bay Area can have this much
going, all these shows competing and all doing well?” I just remember being
really thrilled at that moment and a perfect place to be if you want to see
music.
Was there a problem with violence back then?
Oh there was always a problem with violence.
Overtly?
I think there’s less violence now actually. I think most of
the shows where you would expect there to be a problem with violence are run by
someone who can regulate that. Who can and will regulate that. Most of the
other kind of shows violence isn’t an issue.
Was there a point when things got “bad” in the Philly
scene?
It’s been up and down, cycles, cycles. There’s always some
crew of people that are quick to throw fists but tend to stay in the hard,
hardcore that’s derived from the NY….when I think of NY Hardcore I think of
Gorilla Biscuits and the first Sick Of it All 7” but when people nowadays talk
about NYHC, that kind of tradition like Madball and stuff like that…the kids
that cause trouble would most likely be at those kind of shows. I don’t go to
those kind of shows so it’s not really an issue for me unless my friends band
is playing. Macho shit makes me sad, I’m not really prepared to deal with how I
feel afterwards. It’s not like I’m not supportive of all people trying to do
something positive and constructive with music, I do but when it’s clear that a
few big, aggressive people are dominating the mood in a place and the rest of
the people are intimidated I can’t stomach it, I can’t be around it. It makes
me want to quit so I don’t typically go to those kind of shows.
When the Cabbage Collective started doing shows, prior to
that did you say there wasn’t really anything going on in Philadelphia?
Not much, there were some bars that were doing all ages
shows every once in a while.
So that whole DIY mentality with Sean and Robbie and
whatnot, that just kind of was born out of no one else doing anything like that
at the time?
Not that I’m aware of no. Philly had been known in the ‘80s
as a really scary place, before the era you’re talking about. Philly was a lot
of skin heads.
The only band I can think of from Philly from the ‘80s
was YDI.
Yea, they’re awesome. They still play every once in a while.
There was also Ruined and Decontrol.
What do you think can be contributed to the fact that
that mentality is still in Philadelphia?
I don’t know. We talked about this in another interview
recently and one of the ideas I had was it’s always been kind of an underdog
city. It’s the oldest American city, it’s got a lot of stunning architecture
and cultural stuff goin on. Parts of it are beautiful. It has the largest in
city, urban park in the country which a lot of people don’t know. Fairmount
Park, it starts behind the art museum and runs all along the river on both
sides and way up into the North West. It’s way bigger than Central Park…it’s
the largest green space, dedicated park that’s in the confines of a city in the
US. In the 20th century Philly was a very solid working class city.
Most of the people made their living, paid their mortgage and feed their
families through manufacturing jobs. In the second half of the 20th
century when manufacturing jobs got exported to either the southern part of the
US or overseas because labor was cheaper all these manufacturing facilities
closed down and it really devastated the city. Since then it’s been fighting an
underdog complex and an inferiority complex and clawing its way back up to
respectability. I think there’s something about that that inspires stubborn
dedication and refusal to admit defeat. That is way more important than talent.
I have my doctorate and I’m not a genius. I’m smart but I have my doctorate
because I’m persistent, you know? That’s just another example, stubborn persistent
is way more of an effort than inborn talent.
I’ve seen a few shows there and that sort of thing really
hasn’t been an issue. But I have heard things either from reading something
Robbie wrote when he had problems with violence at his shows long ago and was
just curious if that group of individuals in particular had more to do with it than
others.
Here’s the thing and this is definitely not a cop out, this
is straight up. It’s always been a different group of people over the years.
It’s only at a very specific type of show usually and I think what happens a
lot of the time, the up-side of it is that when people out grow indiscriminate
violence they can become really productive. The reason is that things are
pretty safe right now is that Joe doesn’t let things happen at shows where
things would be likely to happen. He has a tremendous amount of influence and
is at a point in his life now where he knows he owes a great debt to punk and
hardcore and the way he expresses that is by not letting bad stuff happen at
the shows where we need somebody to not let that stuff happen. And at the rest of
the shows it’s not really an issue. Paint It Black and Avail at the church, you
don’t have to worry about that. Paint It Black and The Loved Ones at the
church, you don’t have to worry about that. We did a fest, a 3 day fest for our
New Lexicon record release weekend. We didn’t have security, no troubles. It
was like… very diverse lineups. One day it was us, The World Inferno Friendship
Society, The Marked Men and Dustheads and another day it was more traditional
hardcore; Have Heart, Crime In Stereo, The Hope Conspiracy, Damnation A.D., Let
Down….no trouble, nothing even approaching trouble. Not even bad vibes. I think
the content of the music has everything to do with how people behave to that
music.
Do you guys print your shirts on one brand in particular
or have you switched?
Well we used American Apparel except on this tour where we
ended up under the gun and our printer for some reason didn’t have American
Apparel for some reason in stock, which he usually does and said that if he had
to order it, it wouldn’t get to us in time. As it is we had to get the shirts
shipped to us directly at the first show of the tour in FL and that’s on us.
There’s been way too much stuff goin on and we didn’t get to the question of
t-shirt orders until a week before we left. Usually when we’ve ordered they’ve
had American Apparel there but for some reason they were under-stocked or
whatever and on this tour we have a bran that I can’t vouch for. But in general
for the last 4 or 5 years we’ve used American Apparel for our shirts almost
exclusively.
Is that a conscious decision to be aware of where the
labor comes from?
Absolutely.
Is that something that’s been done in your previous
bands?
No. This band is more overtly about my politics.
Do any of your songs touch on those topics, of being
aware of where your products come from?
Yea, being aware of the responsibility as a consumer for
your actions. Lifestyle politics has limitations but I think it’s an important
place to start.
Would you say in regards to the sales of t-shirts in
hardcore/punk that it’s an under-represented issue?
Yeah, I think people talk about that less now than they did
in the 90’s. Actually I’m especially embarrassed that we’re on a Propagandhi
tour with shirts that aren’t American Apparel. We’ve had nothing but AA for
several years now so it kind of sucks. There’s also the reality of if we’re
going to take time off from work we cannot lose tons of money on tour.
Have you ever given any thought to bringing literature
with you on tour?
Sometimes we have people table with us, we don’t carry
literature ourselves. It is very hard to narrow down our sets of beliefs to the
things we could carry. We should probably do more of that. A friend of ours
that tables with Animal Rights information travels with us on the West Coast.
She’s traveled with us the last several times. If you want to talk about one
persons dogged persistence my friend Tara got the pomegranate juice company,
POM, to stop testing on animals pretty much single-handedly. They wanted to
make all these health claims for pomegranate juice so they would induce
disorders in lab animals and then see how the pomegranate juice affected them.
She had a website for it and they tried to sue her and she eventually got a
major distributor or store to agree to stop carrying it and the company said,
ok we give up. Most people would’ve backed down when they got served with a
lawsuit.
Going back to the shirts for a minute, are you aware of
some of the criticisms of American Apparel and how do you reconcile that with
your decision to use their shirts as a hopefully more ethical alternative to
other brands in terms of labor?
I think the ignorance of other options. It’s pure laziness
on our part as to why we haven’t investigated a little more into the claims of
sexual harassment and stuff like that.
Right. I know a lot of people have issue with the way
that guy in particular handles his marketing and how he treats his female
employees and that the worker conditions overall are just very sub-par but
those are just things that I’ve heard.
The advertising campaigns are soft porn pretty much, that’s
something I don’t worry about or think about. I still think they’re a better
solution than the other brands that are available.
Are you familiar with the brand Gildan? I’ve just
recently heard that they’ve made a public statement that all of their clothing
is made in a democratically run, union supported environment. Hellfish, the
screen printing company from CA, who work with a lot of hardcore bands these
days have supposedly confirmed that Gildan is in fact sweatshop free now.
Thanks for giving me something to chew on.
Two more things, first, the band BURN; are you a fan?
First 7” and live. Live in their original incarnation there
was no better band.
Can you elaborate a bit on the first time you saw them or
a particular time?
The first time I saw them was opening up for the Gorilla
Biscuits in New Jersey and I was just astounded.
Had you heard them prior to that?
No, they were playing before the 7” came out. Revelation in
the 80’s and early 90’s took forever to get shit out. There was a big joke that
there were advertisement in Maximum Rock N Roll that would say “Out Now” but
it’d be a year before the record actually came out. They were notorious for
that. BURN was just astounding. They made stuff that was very punk yet very
experimental. Their fast beats were like almost Discharge beats and then they
would have these bludgeoning slow parts that weren’t thuggy and not really
metal-y either, they were just kind of weird. And then these jazzy drumming
parts that were like..the closest thing I can think of is like Sonic Youth or
something like that. They were genius, they were super tight, super just
pounding, pounding. When Alan Cage quit BURN to do Quicksand full-time I was
very upset. They were an outstanding band and they were about something and the
singer had real energy.
Were you ever a victim of one of his infamous stage
dives?
No but I have to say that people say he invented the
kickboxing dance which is a negative definitely. I saw them a lot back then,
90/91.
I never saw them so I always try to talk to people about
them.
They opened for GB and GB in the late 80’s and early 90’s
were one of my favorite bands really but most of the time sounded like they
hadn’t rehearsed in months.
Last one. I believe you went to the University of
Michigan for college, is there anything that stood out to from that time
period?
You know it’s funny because I used to get mad that none of
my favorite hardcore bands from the North East came through the area but in
retrospect I was really lucky because what was big in 1986, 87, 88 in Ann Arbor
was Sub Pop and I got to see all those bands way before they were famous in a
tiny, tiny room with a stage like a foot high. Saw Nirvana, Soundgarden, Tad,
The Melvins, Dinosaur Jr. Sonic Youth all at this place called the Blind Pig
which no way holds more than 200 people. Saw Poison Idea at a place even
smaller than that. Saw a lot of cool shows. Saw Dinosaur Jr. like a dozen times
before they were big. I saw Big Black in this coffee shop in the basement of
one of the dorms, so I was really lucky. What I wanted to see was Youth of
Today and the Gorilla Biscuits but they didn’t come through really and I didn’t
have a car so I saw what did come through which was some pretty amazing music.
Is there anything about MI you remember? Was that your
first time in the state?
No, my Dad went to Grad School there so he’d taken me to
visit a couple of times when I was younger. I’ve been to Kalamazoo for a
weekend; I’d been up North for a weekend to go camping. A lot of MI in the 70’s
and 80’s was devastated economically because of changes in how manufacturing is
handled. Detroit, Jesus, the city’s been in trouble for some time. I was always
scared of Detroit. I went in to see bigger shows and to go to the Art Museum a
couple times. Ann Arbor’s a pretty idyllic place. I rode my bike around and ate
hummus, drank coffee.
